Israel right to exist
Abraham - Isaac - God
Two Jewish rabbis yesterday called for a peaceful end of Israel saying that the existence of the “Israeli state” was contradictory to the Jewish law.
This what a Newsvine.com Jewish rabbis call for dismantling Israel article says, dated Fri May 2, 2008.
My comments were deleted by the author of the article Dennis P. McCann so I am creating this post with my comments.
A user asked if the Rabbis are legitimate and does Israel have a right to exist!
First of all I did not make these two people Rabbis, so how can I vouch for their legitimacy? I also do not know how one becomes a Rabbi because I am not a Rabbi. Is a Rabbi appointed by the congregation, by another Rabbi, or self appointed? Moses taught God’s Law to the Hebrews, was he a Rabbi or was he a man of God? There is one tribe the Levi of Israel that is suppose to guard the Holly scriptures - the Torah, the Talmud, and other scrolls. Are these Rabbi of the Levi?
Moses is a Levi but did he get the Hebrew Law from a book or from God? Moses is a descendant of Levi. In the Hebrew Bible it says that Levi are the keepers of the Holly scriptures. Jacob - Israel is the father of Levi. Jacob is the descendant of Abraham.
So both Abraham and Jacob are not Levi but they spoke with God and passed God’s words to their descendants. Jewish people are children of Israel. I presume the Rabbis are Jewish! LOL How are they interpreting God’s Law I do not know.
The land of Israel was given to Abraham by God in a covenant between Abraham and God. So if you question Israel existence you need to talk to God.
Now for the State of Israel which was created bu U.N. So if you have a question about that talk to U.N.
Zionist believe in the creation of the State of Israel and believe that all Jews should go back to live in the State of Israel, although modern Zionist have different views on this as well. I am not a Zionist so I cannot speak on their behalf. Is to be Jewish one has to be a Zionist? No! And thank God for that, otherwise there may not be any Jewish people left alive today.
Judaism is a religion and one can live any place they wish and still be Jewish. Jewish people are of Hebrew origin. Abraham and Jacob are Hebrews. Jewish name comes from the tribe of Judah, which is one of the tribes of Israel. Are Jewish people - race descendants of Abraham the Hebrew? Yes.
Should have the State of Israel have been created? The U.N. has decided that Jewish people should have a country of their own. I as a Jewish person do not really care where I live. I do care about having a passport because I need one, and it is an Israeli passport.
If tomorrow U.N will call some over land the State of Israel will I be able to do anything about that? Maybe it will be the Japanese island of Kyushu, or the American Island of Manhattan, or even Thai island of Koh Pangan?
What ever the land location that would be called the State of Israel that would be the State of Israel, and I would have a passport from the State of Israel. To me Israel is a believe not a piece of land, but to other Jewish people it may be different.
Should the State of Israel have been created in the first place? Yes it should have. Every people need a country. Was the location appropriately chosen by U.N.? Well should U.N. have chosen Berlin, Saint Petersburg, or maybe even Hollywood? So as you can see, based on the Bible the location was chosen appropriately.
If you would like a different location for the State of Israel, please talk to the U.N., not me!
This was the long answer. Here comes the short answer.
Does Israel have a right to exist? Yes. Does the State of Israel has a right to exist? Yes. Do Jewish people have a right to exist? Yes.
Anymore questions regarding Israel, the State of Israel, Jewish people, Judaism, or the Hebrews you are more than welcome to address them to me, and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.
May 6th, 2008 at 5:41 pm
The part I find interesting about Israel is that unless you have (presumably provable…which is a morass of thought in itself) Jewish blood you cannot under any circumstances become a citizen. As far as being declared a rabbi goes, to the best of my information, there are about as many versions now of Judaism as of Christianity (and what I find most interesting and viable about the Dead Sea Scrolls is the indication is that Christ may well have been valid–he just wasn’t a one time thing, but part of a recurring phenomenon: however, when and where I read that’s another question).
For what it’s worth, and I’m starting to hate acronyms again.
–Glenn
8]
May 7th, 2008 at 12:03 am
Glenn, being the Chosen People is not an easy thing.
Some may see it as a blessing while to others it may seem as the curse!
Moses - The Ten Commandments
May 7th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
All people Igor should have a homeland where they feel safe and secure. Any injustice inflicted by one man on another is an attack on all and should be exposed for what it is. The people of Israel should know this better than anyone else yet even they are not innocent of atrocities. Wherever the dignity, freedom, or personal safety of an individual or group is threatened people everywhere must speak out and condemn these violations of human rights. This is not a political, religious, or cultural issue it is a human one!
May 8th, 2008 at 12:07 am
Cao, thanks for you comment. As an Irish person you truly understand what it is to be oppressed by another nation of people.
Unfortunately the world does not seem to want to help Israel. When you want to bring the Israeli - Jewish issue out into the open it is usually muted very quickly, as if discussing it will create World War Three.
I started this discussion on Newsvine but they deleted it claiming violation of code of honor. While I did violate their CoH the way I started the discussion, it was all done in good faith. Rules are made to be broken!
Newsvine does Israel has a Right to Exist
On Newsvine before our discussion was interrupted!
I said:
Martin Westenfelder said:
I said:
May 8th, 2008 at 5:37 am
I don’t know what Newsvine is Igor but it doesn’t sound like a place for debate or thinking outside of the box. I’ve never lived under occupation so I am not qualified by experience to give expert testimony on the subject. But, neither am I ignorant of the need for everyone to enjoy personal freedom and safety. One way that Israel could gain the trust of the Arab world, and many other nations, is to withdraw from the Occupied Territories and allow the Palestinian people to enjoy their human rights. Decades of hostilities has proved that the current policies are not working.
May 8th, 2008 at 6:55 am
Cao, Newsvine is owned by MSNBC so that speaks for itself. It is neocon same like FOX news.
While there are a few good people who do think out of the box and want world peace the majority think neoconservative.
I will quote myself with what I wrote on other blogs.
The root of the problem in the Middle East is Israeli and Palestinian relationship. Hamas is inflaming the situation daily by agitating the Palestine people to lob rockets at Israelis and to commit Jihad in the form of Martyrdom. Israelis retaliate with precise military aerial strikes on Hamas.
Both the Israeli and the Palestinian people are suffering because the peace process has been hijacked by the extremists on all sides.
The only way to fix the problem is to bring a multinational police force under NATO to Palestine to help the Palestinian people rebuild their country.
Stop labeling Jihad Mujahideen as Terrorist. They are people and should be treated as people not denounced and marginalized.
They have a believe in their Martyrdom. Right or wrong they believe that they are the Holy Warriors the followers of Prophet Muhammad.
We need to respect them, listen to them, and help them find their way to our hearts! We should never forget Jesus message of Love!
May 8th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Good point Igor! Why isn’t there a peacekeeping force in the Occupied Territories?
May 10th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Neocons want New World Order - NWO.
George Bush has declared it himself in this video.
Bush declares New World Order
The Bush dynasty declaration of NWO is nothing new. Prescott Bush the grandfather of President George W. Bush has declared it as a member of American Liberty League. The league supported Adolf Hitler and was the imputes of World War Two.
I am sure you recall Donald Rumsfeld words of calling France, Germany, and Italy old Europe while Poland and other Eastern European block countries as new Europe.
The seeds of the New World Order can be traced to American Imperialism of the 19th century and the Spanish American War in the American colonization of the Philippines.
We can even logically infer that its roots have seeds in English Puritanism that was brought to America by the Puritan pilgrims.
Now the Neocons have a new strategy, and it is Barack Obama. He is the new Nero - The False Prophet who if elected will unite Europe and America under NWO.
As you may recall from the Bible revelations Nero is the False Prophet.
Barack Obama denounced Reverend Jeremiah Wright
Rev. Jeremiah Wright at the National Press Club 4/28/08
Neither Hillary Clinton nor John McCain has denounced Rev. Wright.
The Beast is a figure in the Book of Revelation, the last book of the New Testament. There are two beasts described in Revelations 13; the First Beast arises out of the sea, having seven heads and 10 horns. The Second Beast arises out of the earth, having the appearance of a lamb while speaking like a dragon. This Beast exercises authority on behalf of the first beast, causing the Earth-dwellers to make an image of the First Beast, and worship him. It is able to give life to this image so that it could speak and kill anyone who doesn’t worship the First Beast. This Beast is later called “The False Prophet” (Rev. 16:13; Rev. 19:20; Rev. 20:10) and together with the Dragon and the First Beast forms the unholy trinity.
The Beast (Bible)
The NWO Armies will be brought to Palestine and they will meet at Armageddon (There is a place with a similar name “Har Megiddo” in Israel.)
Will Armageddon happen and when it will happen it is all up to us. Israel awaits! 666
The Beast - False Prothet
May 10th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
It’s odd headline. Of course “Israel” has right to exist, I mean all lives on earth have right to exist. Forget about the “Human mores” & never talk about “God Willing Right” again. Each people have their own God. Finally there were “no God” when every people declaim their God is the “One & Only True God!”. Obey your instinct. That is the “right” mother nature gave to you & every live on earth.
May 10th, 2008 at 7:41 pm
Randy, to me God is God no matter what name you give him.
If you look at Taosim you have the “White” dot which is Good, you have the “Black” which is Bad, you have the “Circle” which is Process - The Way!
Now Good is Life, Bad is Death, Process is God!
Now look at the Holy Trinity. Jesus, Holy Ghost, and God.
Jesus is Life, Holy Ghost is Death, and God is God!
See if you can find the same relationship in the the Hebrew religion.
The Holy Trinity
May 10th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
No No Igor, in “Tao” there were good and bad.Every thing is in “nature” & of nature. Tao tell us not to think deep, just be within nature act like nature. Forget about life & death, “Life like a dream.” “Are you dreaming of a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming of you?”
May 10th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
So Good can be Bad and Bad can be Good!
Life is a Dream and Death is a Dream.
There is no Beginning and there is no End.
It is just Nature…Continuation…Infinity!
So who is Abraham, who is Moses, who is Igor?
Who is Randy! What is Randy! Where is Randy!
Who is God? What is God? Where is God?
I am so confused! Confucianism!
Buddha
May 10th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Am I told you “not to think deep”? Don’t keep going confused. We are all composed by same particle. So Igor could be Moses,Abraham,Randy,Lao-zi ^o^
We all belong Universe(God), & Universe alway in us.
May 11th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
The Jewish people as a whole have already determined years ago that Israel should once again become a nation - therein lies the ‘State of Israel’. It is their choice. It is their right. It is the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, as of the date that they did so (although I cannot remember the exact year at this moment). They are God’s “chosen people” (though under New Testament doctrine Jew and Gentile, alike, are ‘chosen’) and are entitled to their State, as desired. Whether they choose to live within its confines, or not, is their own prerogative - their EXISTANCE though, is their right.
I am a friend of Israel. I am a friend of God.
Great post!
May 11th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Wow Kimba, a friend of Israel and a friend of God. These are great words, you truly are.
Israel is not just a country it is away to God.
Long live Israel and may Jesus watch other you.
May 20th, 2008 at 1:35 am
For anyone to decide whether a person, persons, or an existing country should exist is playing God, whether the person deciding believes in God or not, and aside from that, it is eradicating the right to life as a human being, which none of us have control over, so, why does it keep growing insurmountably???
ALL PEOPLE have the right to worship as they see fit, to live where they see fit, to exist, and a country already established should not be removed from existence, why does anyone think that they can do this? Where should their country be? Looks to me like all the borders are pretty well sewed up, so where the hell should they go???
As far as the rabbis, they are but men, regardless of the theological cloth, they are yet as fragmented mentally as anyone else, and if they held any esteem for their cloth, they would not be voicing such opinion to a volitile world, which only stirs it up a bit more…
Very profound and well stated article… I enjoyed every word of it, and, I do not say that often… bravo and peace… peace to all of the world…
May 20th, 2008 at 1:49 am
Lynda, Sage words my Sister! Sage words!
May 28th, 2008 at 2:07 am
Israel just needs to rewrite its basic law so that non-jews can be citizens with full rights. This is a current on-going debate within israel about how this should be done/if it should be done but it does seem to be a tread towards more equality for non-jews in israel.
The rabbis which say israel should not exist are a bunch of extremists who want the missiah to come before israel should exist. No-one takes them seriously and more importantly, the very same rabbis who say israel shouldn’t exist are extremely active in israeli politics to make sure their yeshivas get more funding then the secular school system.
May 28th, 2008 at 2:57 am
Yeah Ben, when the Messiah come it will be too late for everybody!
Meanwhile, let’s enjoy living.
June 4th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Your question is flawed Igor. ISRAEL DOES EXIST. It’s not going anywhere. No one should obliged to recognize it’s legitimacy, only it’s existence.
June 4th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Hey Robert, nice to see you here!
The question is rhetorical. Of course it has a right to exist. Every country and every people have rights!
June 4th, 2008 at 11:52 pm
Ok yeah I agree
June 4th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
Well good luck to you and try to find your own path on the Internet. It is not an easy thing to do, but identifying for yourself what are your expectations of the Internet and Social Media does help to see a clearer picture.
June 20th, 2008 at 3:45 am
A democracy without limitations of of it’s constituents is not a democracy. The United States has a border. Israel has defined who it’s constituents are as well and the members of Israel do not stop other states from involving themselves in Democracy. Without the Republic and the limitations of the Republic you have internationalist tyranny. Internationalist tyranny comes in many forms such as Marxism. It is the boundary of who it’s members are that gives a democracy it’s freedoms. All freedoms in specific are not absolute. Freedom of speech is not the freedom to libel or use hate speech. The freedom to own a gun and bear arms is not the freedom to own a nuclear missile. The limitations are what makes freedom work. To declare Israel not a democracy because of it’s limitations on who it’s constituents are is internationalist tyranny. It is called arbitrary gerrymandering and it is an act of violence, racism and bigotry. The Jimmy Carters of this generation might seem enlightening to those that would hate anyway, but 100 years from now when the axioms are seen is a different juxtaposition, these people will be seen as racists. In the same way that the “German Democratic Republic” of East Germany is seen today as a play on language and not a defining character of it’s state. Israel has a right to decide who it’s members are. This does not make it any less of a Democracy then any other Democratic Republic. Israel is a Democratic Republic and in being a Republic gets to define the borders of it’s constituents. Being that outside these borders are violence and hatred, my argument takes on an even more existential argument… but you can not nullify the quality of Israel’s democracy based on terms that you insist to be a member.
June 20th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Noah, you understand the Elitist stance that you took? While I sympathize for my brothers living with fear of attacks from extremists, don’t you think a lot of the hatred is being generated by blocking and banning some Palestinian people from Israel? When I was in Israel in the 80’s it was very peaceful and I had Palestinian people as friends with whom I enjoyed talking with other some Humus and Falafel.
What caused the first Intifada? Can it be oppressive politics by Israel towards Palestinian people or is it something else in your opinion?
June 20th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
as repeated amicably on friendfeed
Maimonades felt that Judaism is an elitism. but a growing elitism. You are thinking in absolutes. We encourage others to create their own positive elite forums and hope they adopt our ideas. If their ideas are so in unison with Jewish ideas then we will call them Jewish. My Christian brothers in the last 60 years in America have become so in spirit with zionism that we give them a special status as trusted brothers. Further even in Judaism there are multiple elitisms.
you mention there are some Jews who do not believe in Israel at all. That is not news Mr. Troll. An elitism can be very dynamic and we can respect those that descent… though I will not live next door to them if they are hostile and violent.